My Community
General Category => Tamil Bible => Topic started by: udaya on May 17, 2015, 09:19:51 AM
-
ஞானஸ்நானம் எதற்காக கொடுக்கப்படுகிறது ? அதன் அர்த்தம் என்ன?
-
ஞானஸ்நானம் என்றால் என்ன?
-
Knowing about God and then dipping in the water.
Its like covenant with God.
-
இயேசு கிறிஸ்துகூட ஞானஸ்நானம் பெற்றார் .
நீங்கள் சொல்வதை பார்த்தால் , அவர் ஞானஸ்நானம் மூலம் கடவுளை அறிந்து கொண்டாரா ? கடவுளோடு உடன்படிக்கை செய்து கொண்டாரா ? அவரே கடவுள்தான் என்று ஏன் நம்ப மறுக்கிறீர்கள் / மறக்கறீர்கள் .
-
Brother u r Claver to ask question but think with us also ....
When Jesus came to this world...he was human so what r the thinks that we need to follow that he did because... We may say if we r following Jesus then y he did not take baptism
That's y Jesus took baptism .....
It does not matter after taking baptism only Jesus knew God more OK.because he is God
-
Ok....Jesus lived as a roll model ....fine.
But , is it right to give baptism to a sinless person (Jesus ) , by a sin natured person (john the Baptist ) ?
Actually , john was right when he said ..
யோவான் அவருக்குத் தடை செய்து: நான் உம்மாலே ஞானஸ்நானம் பெறவேண்டியதாயிருக்க, நீர் என்னிடத்தில் வரலாமா என்றான்.
மத்தேயு 3 :14
Though the following verse implies Jesus gave baptism ...
இவைகளுக்குப்பின்பு, இயேசுவும் அவருடைய சீஷரும் யூதேயா தேசத்திற்கு வந்தார்கள்: அங்கே அவர் அவாகளோடே சஞ்சரித்து, ஞானஸ்நானங் கொடுத்துவந்தார்.
யோவான் 3 :22
This verse clarify who gave baptism ....
இயேசு தாமே ஞானஸ்நானங்கொடுக்கவில்லை, அவருடைய சீஷர்கள் கொடுத்தார்கள்.
யோவான் 4 :3
So again I ask...
Is it OK to give baptism to a sinless person (Jesus ) , by a sin natured person (john the Baptist ) ?
-
Who said john the Baptist is the sinful person ????
If u read Luke 1:15 he got the baptism by the Holy spirit so we can't say that john the Baptist was the sinful man......
-
@: Who said john the Baptist is the sinful person ?
nobody said.
@: If u read Luke 1:15 he got the baptism by the Holy spirit
So what ?
@: so we can't say that john the Baptist was the sinful man......
Of course , we can't say that john the Baptist was a sinful man.
SP , please read my post carefully . Thanks.
-
U only said sin nature person ...... U r making others to get angry ....
-
I don't see anybody , other than you , got angry.
Many people responding to my posts , but none of them seems to be angry. It is normal , people get angered , when they find themselves cornered. That applies to me too.
I am not here to make people angry.
Now the subject....
According to Bible , all are sinned , atleast sin natured. That is applicable to john as well .
-
We r all sinful nature people but after getting the baptism of the Holy spirit we can't say still we r sinful ...
They may try to avoid future sin that's all k
-
ஞானஸ்நானம் பெற்றபின்புகூட ஒருவன் நீதிமானாய் நிலைத்திருப்பான் என்பதற்கு எந்த உத்திரவாதமும் கிடையாதே . sin-nature மனிதனுடன் என்றும் இருக்குமே . நான் யோவான் ஸ்நானகனை கூறவில்லை . யதார்த்தத்தை கூறுகிறேன் .
-
சரி தான் ..ஆவி மாம்சத்திற்க்கு விரோதமாகவும் மாம்சம் ஆவிக்கு விரோதமாகவும் எதிர்த்து நிற்கிறது . ஆவிக்குரிய வாழ்வை அனல் மூட்டிக்கொண்டே இருந்தால் மாம்சமான கிரியைகளை முறியடிக்கமுடியும். மாம்ச செயல் அதிகமானால் இரட்சிக்கப்பட்டவனும் தவறிவிடுவான். (ஆவியை அவித்துபோடாதிருங்கள் 1தெச 5 கடைசிவசனம். ) .. ...ய்
-
@: ஆவி மாம்சத்திற்க்கு விரோதமாகவும் மாம்சம் ஆவிக்கு விரோதமாகவும் எதிர்த்து நிற்கிறது .
இதற்கு. காரணம் என்னவாக இருக்கும் ?
-
That means some times our flesh want to do the wrong things which is hated by the Lord, but our Holy spirit of God will give guidence no to do ....
This is like a war ...
No one can see....
Inner fight .....
-
I am asking for the reason of this war.
-
Because we r living in this world .... Satan don't like us that we r closing near to God that's y he is trying to push down ...
There is connection with our flesh and Satan trick ....
What r the thinks that we should not do the Satan will give guidence for that ... In that time our flesh obey that's it for our Gods will
-
With some difficulty I understand , what you are trying to say . Ok fine
What is the role of baptism in this internal war.(reminding baptism is the title of this thread )
-
Ephesians 6:11, 12, -16 u can understand..
-
warheads ஐ பத்தி கேட்கவில்லை மேடம்.
-
What is the role of sword in the war
The same way Hs also ...
-
The roll of sword is " to kill , to murder"
-
சரி அதை விடுங்க ......ஒரு முக்கியமான கேள்வி..
ஞானஸ்நானம் அவசியமா ?
ஆபிரகாம் , ஈசாக்கு , யாக்கோபு , மோசே , எலியா , எலிசா , தாவீது , சாலமோன் போன்றவர்கள் ஞானஸ்நானம் பெற்றதாக தெரியவில்லை . ஆனாலும் தேவன் அவர்களை அங்கீகரித்தார் என்று தெரிகிறது .
யோசேப்பு , மரியாள் , யோவான் ஸ்நானகன் , சீடர்கள் கூட ஞானஸ்நானம் பெற்றதாக தெரியவில்லை .
so what is the compelling reason to have baptism ?
-
K before I will ask one question OK.
Y we have marriage like a festival ????
Its nothing but like a sign in that way we need to get baptism also k
-
திருமணம் என்பது ஒரு ஆணும் பெண்ணும் இல்வாழ்வில் இணைகிறார்கள் என்பதை உலகிற்கு அறிவிக்கும் சடங்கு .
அதேபோல் , ஞானஸ்நானம் என்பது இறைவனோடு இணைகிறோம் என்பதை இவ்வுலகிற்கு அறிவிக்கும் சடங்கு .....சரியா ?
திருமணம் இன்றி ஒரு ஆணும் பெண்ணும் வாழ்வதற்கு வழி இருப்பதை போன்று , ஞானஸ்நானம் இன்றி , கடவுளோடு இணந்து வாழமுடியுமா ? .....அதாவது பழைய ஏற்பாட்டு மனிதர்களை போல......
-
Yes, without marriage one can live similarly without baptism one can live, but the highlight is marriage is ones personal decision, more than decision its a choice and baptism is not a choice- it is a command.
1 john 5:3 says as "this is love of God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome".
-
@ : baptism is not a choice- it is a command.
A command ?.......well......should we abide by this command ? Most of the people in the Bible didn't obeyed to this command .
So.... why should we take it seriously ?
@: 1 john 5:3 says as "this is love of God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdens.
Of course it says so.
But other parts of the Bible says differently .
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was * against us, * which was* contrary to us*, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Eph 2:15
Having * abolished * in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
-
Baptism…
I am sorry guys, I find it very difficult to type in Tamil. So I am using English. Be patient with me and please read the below. This is what I think of Baptism.
Any concept that our wise God introduces has multiple purposes. This goes with baptism too.
Baptism is not an act that will change your life or spiritual character. It is only a symbolization and acknowledgment of whatever changes that has already happened. This symbolization represents several things.
Proclaiming that you start a relationship with God.
For example, as per law of our government, registering the marriage in the SR office is the actual marriage agreement. But we gather on a specific day and proclaim your marriage vows and tie the knot in front of friends and relatives and publicly declare that we are now husband and wife. It is, we are not in a secret relationship and not ashamed to declare our relationship.
Baptism is similar to that. You actually get into the relationship with God. This happens in your heart in secret and others don’t know it. (Just like registering marriage). But you are not ashamed or afraid of the fact that you are in relationship with the God and you proclaim it publicly through baptism.
This is for the other people to know that this particular guy has entered into relationship with God.
Acknowledging that you are a new person.
Getting into relationship with God is some serious business. You can’t be a sinful guy and get to be with God. So, you need to get cleansed of all the sin. In fact the old sinner has died and a new pure human is born. This should happen in Spirit. (Being born of Spirit). This is the actual change. Getting immersed in water and coming out is a symbolization of that.
This is for the guy who is entering into the relationship with God, a reminder to him/her about the vows he/she has taken, a reminder that the old sinner has died and he/she is supposed to be a new pure bride of God.
Well, this is the ideal situation one gets baptized. Ideally, once baptized we are not supposed to sin after that – because we are born in spirit and fire and we are a pure human. But this is not happening. We sin again and again. (We indeed may not be really born again in spirit, but thought we are born).
But God is merciful and He gives more chances to us and is patient with us. This was what He was showing while washing the feet of His disciples during Lord’s Supper. When Peter says Jesus not to wash his feet, Jesus insists that peter needs to be washed again... John chap13.
“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”
Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”
Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean.
It is like even though we got cleansed (baptized) he washes us again. He is merciful.
-
@: arulksn
Few questions please.......
1. Does this symbolic representation is necessary , other than getting a membership in a church congregation etc. ?
2. How could your explanation , " Proclaiming that you start a relationship with God " , " Acknowledging that you are a new person " be translated to Jesus's baptism case ?
3. What if a person prefer not to take this symbolic representation , otherwise close to GOD .?
4. What about OT people ?
5. What is the position of Yahweh in this matter.?
Any thoughts ?
-
@ Udaya…
I will try to answer your questions as per the limited knowledge I have. I may be wrong and plz correct me if so.
I am answering ur questions in a different order.
Q4: The word baptism is not referred anywhere in the OT. And when John suddenly started giving baptism, thousands of people went and received it. It seems nobody questioned what this act of getting immersed in water is. And at some time later Jesus and the Pharisees even discussed about who is giving baptism and with what authority he is giving baptism. But not about the act of baptism itself. So I think, even at the time of John, the people were aware of what baptism is. May be some sort of ritual, even though not exactly like John’s baptism, atleast very similar to it must have been existing in the time of OT. And the people were aware of it. Could be something like washing as mentioned in Lev 16:4, 24 - but no definite answer here.
Q2: I am not sure why Jesus himself got baptism. I also have lot of questions. John also had this same question and he asked before giving baptism to Jesus. But I think Jesus did that for some good reason.
May be to set an example for us. He is already pure and doesn’t need to be washed. But still He chose to undergo this process. It is not a wrong thing to get washed even though you don’t have stains on you. And it taught a valuable lesson to the people who are stained and the importance of the fact that they definitely need to be washed.
Q1 and Q3 goes together: I don’t think that baptism by water is a ritual that one must go through in order to be saved. There are going to be people in history who never got baptized by water but got saved.
Please consider our pathetic spiritual state of existence and He mercifully saves us and get us to be His bride. (Please do read Ezekiel 15: 3 – 14). Given that He saved us from such a pathetic state, and if we are really ashamed of Jesus, then wouldn’t we be the most ungrateful and back-stabbing people? We can never repay Him for what He has done to us. But atleast we can be thankful to what he has done and not ashamed to tell that He saved us from such a pathetic state.
In some cases, some people may not be aware of such things, and some may not get a chance to say that to the world. (Like the thief in the cross who never got a chance to be baptized). In that case they will still definitely be saved. But if we have the opportunity to recognize Jesus for what He has done to us, and still choose not to do it just because we are ashamed, then we are not really faithful to him. And if not faithful, then how could we be in relationship with Him or close to Him?
The real purpose of baptism is this and not to get membership in some church. Church is considered to be a family of God, and it is reasonable for the church to consider me as one of its member when I get baptized. But if I get baptized just to be a member of any organization for any earthly benefits, then I will be answerable to God for misusing baptism, a symbol of holy relationship. This is same for church also if it misuses baptism.
Q5: Sorry friend. I am not getting what you mean by the question.
What I have said is just my understanding of baptism. If I'm wrong plz correct me and I'll be thankful. :-)
-
To sum up your explanation.....
1. Baptism is a symbolic representation of our state in christ.
2. Though it is not absolutely necessary , we should get it , in order to indicate to the world that we live in christ.
3. Standard definition and purpose of baptism is not applicable to Jesus case.
.......right ?
@: But if we have the opportunity to recognize Jesus for what He has done to us, and still choose not to do it just because we are ashamed, then we are not really faithful to him. And if not faithful, then how could we be in relationship with Him or close to Him?
The reason for not taking baptism need not be " ashamed ". It could be any other reason that may not undermine our faithfulness towards him. For example , John himself didn't get it ( I strongly believe ). But I don't think he did not have a close relationship with GOD . This could apply to Joseph , Mary , his brothers , his disciples and possibly many others as well .
@: Please consider our pathetic spiritual state of existence and He mercifully saves us and get us to be His bride. (Please do read Ezekiel 15: 3 – 14). Given that He saved us from such a pathetic state, and if we are really ashamed of Jesus, then wouldn’t we be the most ungrateful and back-stabbing people?
This reasoning may be applicable to those who belongs to post-Jesus period . But what about Jesus - period -people ? .We see " Baptism " was different to them .
It mean to them as " baptism »»»»»»»» saved ".
* மனந்திரும்புதலுக்கென்று * நான் ஜலத்தினால் உங்களுக்கு ஞானஸ்நானங் கொடுக்கிறேன்........ மத்தேயு 3 :11
விசுவாசமுள்ளவனாகி ஞானஸ்நானம் பெற்றவன் இரட்சிக்கப்படுவான், விசுவாசியாதவனோ ஆக்கினைக்குள்ளாகத் தீர்க்கப்படுவான்.
மாற்கு 16 :16
The above verses (and many other verses ) indicate that they are told
" get baptism , be saved " .......definitely a different reason and purpose. Due to this very meaning , John objected Jesus taking baptism .
So I want to add the 4th point of mine .
4. The word ' Baptism ' has different meaning to different people of different period .
Next.......
நான் ஜலத்தினால் உங்களுக்கு ஞானஸ்நானம் கொடுத்தேன்,அவரோ பரிசுத்த ஆவியினால் உங்களுக்கு ஞானஸ்நானம் கொடுப்பார் என்று பிரசங்கித்தான்.
மாற்கு 1 :8
The above verse ( and some other verses ) speak about two types baptism .
By John the Baptist
By Jesus christ
What would be the difference , merits and demerits of the two.
BTW....Kindly ignore Q5 , as it may derail the discussion to something else. Thank you.